Tony Roth, Chief Investment Officer
Victoria Gray, Founder, Insight Art & Collectibles Advisory
Roth, Tony
Welcome back to Wilmington Trust’s capital considerations. I'm your host, Tony Roth, Chief Investment Officer of Wilmington Trust. Today I am delighted to be joined by Victoria Gray, the founder and Principal of Insight Art, and Collectibles Advisory. Victoria is a veteran of the global auction world and brings deep expertise in acquisitions, appraisals and the sale of complex assets, primarily collectibles. Through Insight, she provides independent strategic guidance on all aspects of art and collectibles, partnering with the estate attorneys, wealth managers, trustees, and buyers to navigate the complexities of significant collections and legacy collections owned by estates. Prior to launching Insight, Victoria spent more than two decades at Bonhams, where she held many roles, including the position of deputy chairman of North America.
So we're in a world today, Victoria, where there are so many different concerns around traditional assets, around traditional stocks and bonds that range from the core issues around fiscal debt and the amount of debt that the country has and whether or not bond yields will drop, increasing bond values or whether that won't happen.
The stock market is pretty appreciated right now, and we've also had this inflation fight where the value of hard assets like gold but also like art and other tangibles have resumed a greater prominence in investors' minds as alternatives. And I think that we just came off of a pretty scorching week in New York a couple of weeks ago where the fall auction set some new records in the contemporary and modern spaces. Maybe a couple billion dollars or more in some of these auctions.
So I think that we're in a period where certainly art as a collectible is probably the leading arena. Maybe we should start the conversation by, maybe just giving me your take on where you think the art market is and where it's going given the context that I laid out and, and any additional thoughts that you have, and then we'll go from there.
Gray, Victoria
Yeah, Tony, it's a great question. So the third week in November every year is sort of called auction week in New York and this year over $2 billion of art traded hands, was sold in just five days. The past couple years, there has been a lot of press and a lot of assumptions that the art market was in a downturn, the art market was soft, and the most recent, very high watermark in terms of the November sales was November 2022 when the Paul Allen collection was sold. And then the following couple years, three years the sales, the seasons were a little bit softer and you know three years is an eternity in the art market. But this November, the art market came roaring back in those five days. We saw a number of really important estates go up for sale from the Lauders, the Pritzker’s, Elaine Wynn, the Weiss collection, and also the reemergence of trophy lots. So over 16 works of art sold, you know, in a very, very high range above $20 million. And of course, the incredible work, the Klimt painting portrait from the Lauder collection soared past $200 million making it the second highest price ever sold for a work of art at auction.
So these, the reemergence of these trophy lots, but also very interesting, we saw the renewed interest and the intense buyer interest in works that were created in the early 20th century, as opposed to the very ultra contemporary works or, you know, the later half of the 20th century. So, we saw a lot of works by the impressionists who really command high prices, Rothko those sort of earlier artists as opposed to like the Basquiats and the Warhols.
Roth, Tony
So Victoria, a lot of this sounds like it's a supply issue. In other words, the top blue-chip collectors, they rise to the occasion when the right material is presented and they are all competing against each other. Some of it perhaps was a broadening of interest, I'm interpreting your last comment, but do you think that this one period of five days really represents a reignition of the broad art market or do you think it's really just the supply that happened to be present and there's not a lot of reason to think it's going to go beyond this.
Gray, Victoria
Well, it's a little bit of both. I mean it definitely demonstrated that consumer confidence in the art and collectibles market is alive and well and extremely healthy. This is a very buoyant market. But this season also had an abundance of estates with collections that were fresh to the market. The Weiss collection from the Weiss family in Pennsylvania, the supermarket family, no one even really knew that the Weiss family had this collection or it even existed. So these collections that were so fresh to the market, they've been locked up in private hands for the past 40-50 years, and then of course coupled with, you know, names and the auction house's ability to really tell the stories of the Lauders, the Pritzker’s, Elaine Wynn and her philanthropy and collecting. The creating the narrative around these collections and the fact that they were so fresh to the market really created a feeding frenzy.
Roth, Tony
And do you think that there's any evidence that these purchasers are in any real way thinking about these assets as part of a diversified really pool of assets or are they thinking them more as you use the word trophy? They either have a love for art or they have a, some type of ego satisfaction by owning these things.
I mean that plays a very different role where the average investor who's not a multi billionaire, but maybe worth a lot of money is going to be a little bit more judicious in how they deploy their funds in terms of anything of that large number is going to really need to have an investment return that's going to persist for them as opposed to these hyper multibillionaires are going to just buy anything without even thinking about it perhaps. I mean, how do you think about the sensibility of the broader marketplace as an investment versus it truly being a collectible, and maybe this is a good moment to broaden the conversation because I think there's a question as I started the conversation initially around traditional investable liquid securities, and whether or not and to what degree collectibles could play a diversifier from an investing standpoint. How do you think about those issues when you're asked by collectors whether they be focused on art or everything's different, of course, but could be wine or coins or cars et cetera.
Gray, Victoria
Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, there is no doubt that there were a lot of people looking to capitalize on good investments. Especially over the past couple years when it's been such a buyer's market, when you know, certain areas have been a little bit softer. But I think in the November sales, people were definitely being opportunistic looking to invest in very blue-chip artists that would hold value over the next few decades.
You mentioned something like wine and the greater collectibles market. Wine traditionally has been a much more fixed commodity. Wine, we take a spreadsheet and it's a pretty set formula in terms of what bottles are trading hands for. It doesn't change that much. We can price out a spreadsheet of a seller very quickly, just based on the comps and there are so many wine auctions and online sales out there.
The market for fine art, especially this very high end 20 and 21st century, there are really only two weeks in the year where the, the market at this level changes hands. That's May and November. So there's much more consistent pricing in wine than there is in the fine art market. But I think in terms of collectibles, in the past few years we have seen an extraordinary surge in the luxury collectibles market. So purses, belts, shoes, couture, the whole sort of fashion and luxury industry has absolutely exploded.
Roth, Tony
What do you attribute that to? In other words, I could see it being either a way for less wealthy non billionaires, not that billionaires wouldn't participate potentially, but maybe the non- billionaires to have those, those ego satisfaction or trophy assets for them because they're not going to buy $200 million Klimt painting. Or it could be that they genuinely believe that, hey, if I buy a bunch of Hermes handbags for $50,000 a pop, you know, I'll be able to sell them in three years for a $100,000 a pop and maybe they're making an investment statement.
Gray, Victoria
Yeah, I think it's two things. One is we have seen sort of Gen X, Gen Z, Millennials really enter the market in, in a strong way over the past couple years, and they are not buying what the baby boomers were buying, right? I mean the things that we're seeing them buy versus what's coming to the market in the Great Wealth transfer couldn't be more different.
So, they're looking for watches, belts, purses like an Hermes handbag, like you said. The influx of those generations into the marketplace, but also the huge shift of the traditional auction market from live auctions to online auctions.
Roth, Tony
Right.
Gray, Victoria
And of course COVID was a forcing function for this, but even for live auctions, we see over, on average, over 65% of lots, even in live auctions are sold to an online bidder online buyer. So, these timed online auctions that are open for sort of eight or ten days, they've made the auction market much more accessible to people. Whereas, you know, previously people might have been intimidated to bid under pressure, under duress with an auctioneer about to drop the hammer. This way they have 8,10 days to think about it. They can place a bid in the comfort of their own home. They can think about it again, place another bid, whereas they're not buying under pressure, whereas, you know, in the traditional live auction format, that's how it was.
Roth, Tony
And do you find that buyers in the non-blue chip A pieces, top of the market are deploying meaningful amounts of their wealth, 5% or more into these kinds of assets or is it rather that they have more money they can spend, and so they're going to dabble in wherever their interests might lie. Yes, in today's world, some of those luxury categories are rising probably and ironically given what we talked about two weeks ago, some of the art categories are probably dropping outside of that apogee of that art pyramid. And I'm trying to get at this question of whether people are really doing this because they're trying to make an investment and they're being thoughtful about building a diverse asset pool or is it really just sort of play money on the side it's not a large portion, and that's what I would have thought it was in most cases, but I don't know.
Gray, Victoria
Yeah, so we see it as sort of the individual buyer, the individual collector. For them, it's more of a passion project. The history of connoisseurship and they get the collecting bug in one certain area, is it, you know, rare books or coins or some of those more traditional collectible categories. But then we see a lot of family offices and other very high net worth individuals that are absolutely going at it from an investment standpoint. So we've seen a lot of family offices get extremely active in the collector's car market, in the wine market, in the coin market, but in gold coins specifically. You know, it used to be that the diamond market was a great place.
Everyone was at, at some point saying rocks, not stocks and put your money into hard assets like diamonds. The influx of lab-grown diamonds into the diamond market has absolutely torpedoed the value of diamonds and how they're valued and how you price it and it has become very tricky. About 45% of diamond engagement rings last year were lab-grown diamonds. So historically people have bought the diamonds they could afford at that time maybe 10,15, 20 years from now, you might get sort of an upgrade ring or a larger stone, not anymore. They go in for the, for the really large stone right up front and if they can't afford it, they go for the lab-grown stone. So, that's an area that people used to look as a really great investment, diamonds, but we're not seeing that anymore. That is more you know for personal use.
Roth, Tony
Okay, so let's go through, let's be systematic if we could about this, and you've already covered diamonds. Let's go back to art and then let's go through some of these other categories and talk about what your outlook would be. Understanding, of course, these are not heterogeneous categories. Art is extremely diverse so take art. If you're interested in art, you're not going to be buying a picture for $50 million, even $20 million, you're going to be buying lots in the hundreds of thousands to low millions, let's just say, it could be by blue chip artists, but obviously they're not the pictures that are going to end up hanging in the foyer of the MOMA. How do you see that market evolving and what areas do you think are going to be potentially the areas to do well in the next decade and what are the areas that may do less well. Old masters or some of these things that you would think would be of less interest to those younger generations that you mentioned?
Gray, Victoria
If we just look at the painting market, e.g., within the larger, the broader fine art category. Female artists, definitely we are seeing a huge surge in the value of, of works by female artists.
Three weeks ago, that great example by Frida Kahlo, which was now the highest price paid for a painting by a female artist, which surpassed the Georgia O’Keefe, which had the market, but yes, absolutely. Living female artists, female artists that are not living, a huge interest. We are also seeing foundations and private foundations just focusing on works by female artists.
There's a foundation Silicon Valley couple and they have a foundation, the Shah Garg Foundation, and they are just their foundation is just investing in works by female artists. The foundation currently has a national tour of the works in the collection. The, the national exhibit is called making her mark and it's all about female artists and especially female artists of color. So we're definitely seeing a huge interest and a surge in that market.
Another area within, just staying within the fine art category is photography, a huge amount of interest in the photography market. And a lot of that is because of the younger generation coming into the market and they might not be able to buy an original Damien Hirst, but they could buy a Damien Hirst print. So it allows them access to one of these very blue-chip artists and a work by these artists, but at a lesser price point.
Roth, Tony
And what about buying works, whether they be multiple or an original work, but a much lower price point of some of the blue-chip artists that are doing so well at the big auctions, whether they're alive or not. What are your thoughts there?
Gray, Victoria
Yes, a hundred percent. Buying prints and multiples by these very blue-chip artists, is definitely a great investment. Markets are going up for those continually year on year, season on season. There's a huge interest in prints. Prints are accessible. They're easier for people in terms of storage, insurance, managing the collection.
The one thing to really keep in mind that affects the value with the prints and multiples market is condition. So the print buyers are historically purists, and it's on a sheet of paper. So that's important to keep, keep in mind that it's in great condition.
Roth, Tony
I personally have been a print collector, a photography collector for a long time and I've always felt that it's too bad I didn't take everything I ever spent on art and saved it for one piece.
But, we'll have to see and wait and see over time whether or not some of these pieces will in fact pay off for me. Although I did all this because I love the work. So, what, what areas would you say are less in favor from a fine arts collectible standpoint right now? Where would you suggest that collectors maybe veer away from?
Gray, Victoria
Yeah, I mean, obviously, over the past couple years, the furniture market and not 20th century design, but 18th and 19th century furniture. What we sort of lovingly refer to as brown furniture.
The brown furniture sort of what you would have in your grandparents’ house with the traditional, Persian carpets and, you know, silver, crystal, anything that sort of from that genre where people used to have a big armoire to store the crystal, the China, the silver. Carpets and rugs, brown furniture. It continues to still be really challenging to command prices or even find sale venues for those sorts of things. First of all, it's because there's a huge supply hitting the market. Second of all, it's a little bit out of style, out of favor, everybody's going for the Formica tables that were made in the sixties. But also it's just lifestyles have changed. So people are not doing the same sort of formal entertaining, in the same way that they were.
Roth, Tony
That is fine art. Just a word because we do have quite a few clients who have inherited old master paintings, I'm assuming that that's probably not a great investment on a go forward basis. That genre that that's kind of 19th century call it darker boats or, sort of static still lives, even with figures, those kinds of paintings are probably not, unless they're really blue chip, probably not going to command a lot of money these days relatively speaking.
Gray, Victoria
Yes, the 19th century European paintings, you know pastoral landscapes and things, the market is extremely soft for those. You have to sort of sprinkle one or two in maybe an estate or interiors auction to try and, try and get those away. But yeah, they're not popular at all.
I wouldn't put old masters in the same category as 19th century European paintings.
Roth, Tony
Right.
Gray, Victoria
Old masters are performing much better. You know, the market for those is really in London and in Europe, so they're not sold in New York. But the auction houses have all pretty much closed their 19th century European paintings departments and they just use either consultants or sort of fold them into these interiors’ auctions.
Roth, Tony
What about Chinese art? It's an area that over the last 20 years has had an awful lot of attention. Are there other less traditional than the western heritage strains of art that you would suggest that people either continue to work in if they already are or maybe take a look at?
Gray, Victoria
Yeah. So contemporary Chinese paintings and contemporary Southeast Asian and Indian paintings, the market for those, we've definitely seen a huge resurgence in the past few years, specifically from the markets themselves in the country of origin looking to repatriate those sorts of artists. There's a wonderful Indian artist called by the name of Gaitonde and his works have been commanding, you know, really strong seven figure prices for the past couple years. And these are works that were painted in, you know, the mid to late sixties.
Roth, Tony
Interesting. Okay, let's move off of fine arts in the interest of time, and we've covered diamonds. What about other jewelry? Just jewelry in general. And if you did want to collect jewelry, would you go out and buy a brand new beautiful sapphire or a ruby with a nice setting or would you want to buy something that had established design lineage, how would you go about building such a collection?
Gray, Victoria
Yeah, so if you're looking just from an investment purpose right now, signed jewelry. So, designers such as Cartier, Van Cleef and Arpels, David Webb, Tiffany, any signed jewelry by those makers is commanding extremely strong prices and they continue to rise. They will also always hold their value based on, you know, who the maker was, whether it's French or British or American. Gold also right now is something that, is extremely high. So 1960s gold bangles have tripled in price pretty much over the past 15 years. The pearl market is sadly still extremely soft, just based on the influx of cultured pearls into the pearl market. Colored stones, rubies, emeralds still holding their value. Within the diamond market, colored diamonds are presenting very differently than white diamonds. So colored stones are extremely desirable right now. If it's a blue diamond, a pink diamond, you may have just seen Bunny Mellon's diamond, just sold in Geneva for a great price. So, you know, those sorts of stones are still holding their value, but I would say colored stones and signed jewelry by a known maker.
Roth, Tony
And are colored stones harder to lab grow? Is that something to do with it or is that not even the case?
Gray, Victoria
There are not as many lab grown sapphires emerald rubies right now. The lab grown phenomenon has really been just focusing on the white diamond market. So the colored stones have been holding their value so far.
Roth, Tony
Okay, let's talk about coin collecting outside of the intrinsic value of the precious metal. Gold is obviously skyrocketed. If you're going to have a coin collection and gold has tripled in the last two or three years, one would, one would think that your coin collection is done pretty well if it has a lot of gold in it. What about the inherent nonmetal value of coins and how do you put it together? And what do you think about on a go forward basis? I mean, our thesis on gold is that gold typically is very spiky. We have very intense periods where it does very well and then it sits for decades, and we're probably either in the middle or towards the end of one of those periods in our view.
Gray, Victoria
Clients have not been able to get enough gold coins to the market fast enough. If we look outside of that one specific area, like if we look at ancient Roman coins or other coins, almost next to nothing in terms of interest or investment rise over the past few years.
Roth, Tony
Interesting. Okay, so very specific type of coin obviously here.
Gray, Victoria
Absolutely.
Roth, Tony
Okay, and I personally would question whether or not the metal's going to continue to do all that well. Therefore, I would question whether or not the coins are going to do well. So now let's move to wine. Wine is an area that has struggled tremendously because there's been, you know, those younger generations, not just less wine relative to other alcohol, but less alcohol in general.
Then the tariffs I think are causing a lot of disruption in terms of the free flow of goods. So wine I would think would be something that folks would want to stay away from on a go forward basis. What do you think?
Gray, Victoria
Wine is different than the other traditional collecting categories in that it is what we consider an experiential asset. It is also a consumable asset. So many people like to purchase it to enjoy it together, be parts of wine clubs. It allows access to certain lockers and wine societies that they wouldn't have access to otherwise. So it can be sort of a gateway into a community. From a purely investment standpoint again, I think if you're buying these sort of cult wines, like if we look at California cult cabs, like a Screaming Eagle or a Harlen, those are all continuing to stay at the same top value that they were 5,10 years ago.
Roth, Tony
What about French wines?
Gray, Victoria
French wines are probably softened over the past sort of 5, 10 years. And of course the auction market in London has had to switch and migrate all of their auctions over to Paris as part of the effects of Brexit. And so, moving those to France, I think has also affected the value.
Roth, Tony
Okay, let's think about other types of things to collect, the major categories, important categories that we've missed. I do think that for much of our male audience, let's say not to be too, too gender biased here, but those men tend to be within the jewelry space, I want to give them their due for watches, right? They still like to spend some money in jewelry on watches. And you did mention that as a positive area which is surprising to me because I would have thought the younger generations don't even know what a watch is. They've never had a watch on their wrist. They only know what a phone is. Talk to us a little bit about why watches might be in recovery a little bit.
Gray, Victoria
Oh yeah. The watch market is incredibly strong, and the collectors of watches are fanatics. So again these are markets that have largely shifted to online auctions and we've seen the surge in prices of high end brands, you know, not just Rolex, but of course some of the larger international brands, I think it was just a day or two ago an F.P. Journe that belonged to Francis Ford Coppola sold for $10 million.
Roth, Tony
Wow.
Gray, Victoria
Yes, it was incredible. That was at a New York auction. It was a prototype that Francis Ford Coppola worked on with Journe to create and it commanded an incredible price over ten. I think it was about almost $11 million for that single watch. But even outside of those really sort of rare market outliers, we're seeing the basic watch market bringing incredibly strong prices.
Roth, Tony
Okay cool. We haven't talked about automobiles. Let's talk about automobiles a little bit, and that's certainly a category that many of our clients have passions for, not necessarily on the collectible level, but had they thought it was a rainbow to the pot of gold, maybe they would. So talk to us about automobiles please.
Gray, Victoria
The collector's car market has been extremely mixed over the past couple years. We've seen a huge surge in prices for super cars. So cars that have less than, 10,000 miles or maybe never driven at all. But these are cars where, you know, just nobody can go out and buy them. You basically need to be invited to purchase one of these super cars, be it a Lamborghini, McLaren, one of those. And so the only way that people can access these cars is at auction.
And so to be part of that market and be able to obtain one of these super cars, we've seen prices fly at auction over the past couple years. But the more sort of passion projects, the barn finds, the traditional sort of collector motor cars, the market for those has definitely softened over the past few years.
Roth, Tony
So I think we've covered most of the major categories and I wanted to pivot to a different angle on collecting, which is of course that a lot of our clients have already accumulated collections and they're looking to, to de accession, they're looking to unwind over time. They can’t only drink another thousand or two bottles of wine, they can't drink the 80,000 to 100,000 they have stored or whatever it may be, and they don't want to leave the kids the burden of dealing with all the stuff that they've accumulated, and so they need to figure out a strategy for unwinding these collections that they had so much passion for and perhaps in many cases it was not principally investment driven, but it has become a large part of the overall corpus of the family’s assets. How would you recommend, it’s going to be different, of course, does everything go to auction? Private sales, and even within the scope of the auction houses, I've always had this bias that, Christie’s has the most cache and if you're a seller, you go to Christie's because you're going to pay the same thing unless it's really at the top of the market and someone's going to guarantee you more money at another house, you know, you might as well go to the Christie's if you're going to pay the same premium or fee, to the, to the seller. I know you may take umbrage to that cause you're a Bonham’s alumnus, but how you think about, in general strategies and among the auction houses, would you agree that that's the way to go because they have the most cache or really or does it really matter?
Gray, Victoria
It really depends on the category and you know what the overall goals are. So e.g., you know, there are some very esoteric categories like Native American and tribal arts. Christie's historically has not had a department or specialists in that area. So, you see a lot of wealthy collectors in the Pacific Northwest, in that sort of, you know, California, Washington, Oregon area that have incredible Native American collections from baskets to pots to totem poles, beaded war vests, you name it. And that's a category where the house with the most cache would not make the most sense.
Another important thing to look at, if we look at the category of fine art, if you've collected a number of works by the same artist, you know you might want to be careful, there might be a potential for a blockage discount there in that you would not want to dump all of those on the market at the same time as opposed to sort of parcel those out over the next couple of years in order to keep the market high for that artist.
Roth, Tony
And at different houses as well, not just different times.
Gray, Victoria
Absolutely different houses, different venues, so not all in New York. Maybe you put some in LA but I would definitely do multiple venues, multiple auction houses depending on what the category is.
Another thing to, to look at is private sale. So many collectors and clients have a work of art that they would potentially want to sell, but they know that if it hits the market, everybody's going to know that that's their painting, sort of a beautiful trophy painting that's been hanging over their fireplace and people start to wonder and ask questions. Are they having financial trouble? Were they forced to sell? Are they getting divorced? What's going on? So in those instances, people will often choose private sale. They don't have to wait for an auction. They have a little bit more control over the process and the pricing, and there isn't that sort of element of surprise, and of course the very public aspect of the auction market.
Roth, Tony
And of course auction houses now have been taking on dealers and entering the private sale space for a number of years. How do you feel about an auction house versus a dealer? Those who collect have relationships with dealers, but there almost seems to be something a little safer and more objective about working with an auction house to affect a private sale than a dealer. Dealers can often be a little bit more opaque in dealing with them as opposed to an auction house, to affect a private sale. But maybe I'm wrong. What do you think?
Gray, Victoria
You're absolutely correct. Yes, much more opaque. I don't think that the dealer would potentially have the bandwidth of buyers that an international auction house would, right? The dealer has a limited platform compared to an auction house that has a very international platform and has a broader reach. I also think with dealers, it is more opaque. You don't necessarily know, you know, what is the final price, what amount of premium is the buyer paying? You know, what is their cut? So I think that's something, you know, unless you've had a really long-standing relationship with the dealer. It wouldn't be my first choice.
Roth, Tony
Okay. Terrific. Well, I would say that for clients, and I've collected myself a little bit and advised folks for many many years, what I've always told folks is that unless it's an area that's not just a passion, but it's an area of expertise where you really feel that you know enough to be able to justify putting a meaningful amount of your wealth, on the table, I probably wouldn't ever devote more than maybe 5% to these types of pursuits of an overall, asset base.
And it's one where even within that parameter, really focus on what you love, what's going to bring you pleasure. I think that almost everything that you consume should be, I love the word you use Victoria—experiential.
If it's experiential and not consumable and durable, not ephemeral, you know, maybe even better. No disrespect to the Oenophiles listening, but, I think that, you know, keep it in proportion, at least as with the time of investment to the overall asset base and make sure something that brings pleasure and real passion. And I think that if those things happen and you develop an expertise, all the more likely that you will be successful from an investing standpoint as you develop your own sensibilities and knowledge. So that's how I would leave things for our listeners and I'm going to give you the last word Victoria, if there's anything that you'd want to add.
Gray, Victoria
Yeah, I agree with that too. People are always asking me what is the best investment I can make, you know, in a work of fine art? And I always say buy something that you want to hang on the wall and look at for the next 20 years because that is really your best investment. But the final thing that I would want to say to any sort of, you know, beneficiaries inheriting a collection or people starting to help, their parents or say grandparents with their estates and as you said earlier, sort of de accessioning works from a larger collection is that the broader collectibles category has exploded over the past couple years. So things like fossils, dinosaur bones, sports memorabilia, any kind of Hollywood memorabilia, historic and rare documents, all of these things before you just sort of toss it into a box and send it off to the Goodwill or something, it's important to really take a very close look at, at what those things are.
Roth, Tony
Well that's a really interesting closing angle and great perspective for us. So, thank you so much. This has been a great conversation.
We'd love to have you on again in a period of time and see how things are developing for collectibles and wanted to remind the audience in signing off today that for all of our thought leadership in the investing and planning space, please go to Wilmingtontrust.com and you'll also soon be able to read our 2026 capital market forecast entitled Economic Experimentation: Trade labor, and debt under the microscope, which will give us a really interesting perspective on what we think 2026 will bring for us. So thank you everybody and thank you so much Victoria.
Gray, Victoria
Thanks, Tony. Take care.
DISCLAIMER
This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not intended as an offer or solicitation for the sale of any financial product. Or service or recommendation or determination that any investment strategy is suitable for a specific investor. Investors should seek financial advice regarding the suitability of any investment strategy based on the investor's objectives, financial situation, and particular needs.
The information on Wilmington Trust's capital considerations with Tony Roth has been obtained from sources believed to be reliable, but its accuracy and completeness are not guaranteed. The opinions, estimates, and projections constitute the judgment of Wilmington Trust as of the date of this podcast and are subject to change without notice. The opinions of any guests on the Capital Considerations podcast who are not employed by Wilmington Trust or M&T Bank are their own and do not necessarily represent those of M&T Bank Corporate or any of its affiliates. Wilmington Trust is not authorized to and does not provide legal or tax advice.
Our advice and recommendations provided to you is illustrative only and subject to the opinions and advice of your own attorney, tax advisor, or other professional advisor.
Diversification does not ensure a profit or guarantee against a loss. There is no assurance that any investment strategy will be successful.
Investments that focus on alternative assets are subject to increased risk and loss of principal and are not suitable for all investors.
Past performance cannot guarantee future results. Investing involves a risk, and you may incur a profit or a loss. Any reference to company names mentioned in the podcast should not be constructed as investment advice or investment recommendations of those companies. Third party trademarks and brands are the property of their respective owners.
Third parties referenced herein are independent companies and are not affiliated with M&T Bank or Wilmington Trust. Listing them does not suggest a recommendation or endorsement by Wilmington Trust. Private market investments are only available to investors that meet the
U. S. Securities and Exchange Commission's definition of qualified purchaser and accredited investor.
Facts and views presented in this report have not been reviewed by and may not reflect information known to professionals in other business areas of Wilmington Trust or M&T Bank and may provide or seek to provide financial services to entities referred to in this report. M&T Bank and Wilmington Trust have established information barriers between their various business groups.
As a result, M&T Bank and Wilmington Trust do not disclose certain client relationships or compensation received from such entities in their reports. Investment products are not insured by the FDIC or any other governmental agency, are not deposits of or other obligations of or guaranteed by Wilmington Trust, M&T Bank, or any other bank or entity, and are subject to risks including a possible loss of the principal amount invested.
Wilmington Trust is a registered service mark used in connection with various fiduciary and non fiduciary services offered by certain subsidiaries of M&T Bank Corporation, including, but not limited to, Manufacturers and Traders Trust Company, M&T Bank, Wilmington Trust Company, WTC, operating in Delaware only, Wilmington Trust N.A., WTNA, Wilmington Trust Investment Advisors, Inc., WTIA. Wilmington Funds Management Corporation, WFMC, Wilmington Trust Asset Management LLC, WTAM, and Wilmington Trust Investment Management LLC, WTIM. Such services include trustee, custodial, agency, investment management, and other services. International corporate and institutional services are offered through M& T Bank Corporation's international subsidiaries.
Loans, credit cards, retail and business deposits, and other business and personal banking services and products are offered by M&T Bank, member FDIC.
Copyright 2025 M&T Bank and its affiliates and subsidiaries. All rights reserved.
Equal Housing Lender. Bank NMLS #381076. Member FDIC.
