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April 6—As we entered 2022, even the onset of the omicron variant failed to shake markets’ optimism. With much of the world learning to cope with an endemic COVID-19 and rates set to rise, the stage was set for strong global growth. The last three months, though, have been less rosy than we might have hoped.  From the Russia/Ukraine conflict to inflation surprises, investors would be hard-pressed to say they were anticipating this level of macro uncertainty. Chief Investment Officer Tony Roth sat down with Wilmington Trust’s Head of Investment Strategy, Meghan Shue, to talk us through the investment implications of the wider landscape.

Please listen to important disclosures at the end of the podcast.

What’s ahead in the 2022 investment landscape?

Tony Roth, Chief Investment Officer, Wilmington Trust Investment Advisors, Inc.

Meghan Shue, Head of Investment Strategy, Wilmington Trust Investment Advisors, Inc.

MEGHAN SHUE: Inflation for me really is the key and we have seen continued pressure across various elements of the inflation landscape. Wages remain firm, supply chains have not resolved themselves as quickly as we had hoped, and we’re looking at a historically tight labor market.

TONY ROTH: That was Wilmington Trust’s Head of Investment Strategy Meghan Shue on the unanticipated challenges investors face.

Welcome to Capital Considerations the market and economic podcast that’s fully invested in your success. I’m your host, Tony Roth, Chief Investment Officer of Wilmington Trust.

So, it’s been quite a year so far. We came into the year with a lot of optimism. We were overweight equities. We thought that with the hopefully last major wave of COVID we’d really be finally getting that big pivot from goods to services and the economy would just light up and equities would do great, and the world would see a lot of really good growth. We’re having some of that, but we’re also seeing some things we didn’t expect. We’re seeing a lot of inflation, so that’s a problem. That’s been an issue that’s being magnified by the problem that we have in Eastern Europe with Russia invading Ukraine and then the follow-on impacts on commodity shock and oil and energy probably most concerningly. And we’re also seeing problems with China with their management of COVID and shutdowns and Shanghai closing, but also, it’s sort of systemic across the country.

So, I’m really excited to be joined today to talk about these issues and what we’re doing about them in our portfolios with my colleague, Meghan Shue. To remind everyone, Meghan is not only our head of investment strategy, our head of our portfolio management committee, and a member of our Investment Committee, but she’s also a regular contributor to financial media outlets, including CNBC, the Financial Times, and the Wall Street Journal. Welcome, Meghan.

MEGHAN SHUE: Thank you, Tony, for having me. I’m happy to be here.

TONY ROTH: Yeah. It’s, you know, it’s funny as I sit here in our studio next to you. You were actually our guest in the first episode, and I think we might’ve done one or two other recordings in the studio with other colleagues. But it reminds me being here with you now of the two years we’ve had. We’ve done about 20–25 episodes a year and it’s been a really great run, so it’s great to be with you here to now take this forward into our third year. So, to start with, we’re going to get into the details of all the various factors that I’ve mentioned that have presented themselves as headwinds from where our base case scenario was. We came into the year; I think we were thinking about maybe 3.25–3.50% growth and we didn’t get Big Back Better and we didn’t get as much tailwind as we thought we were going to get from lots of areas of the economy due to this inflation problem. And so, now we’re probably a little bit sub-2% growth expectation for the year, not negative, but still positive.

We’re not forecasting a recession. But, boy, there’s a lot of concern around where the Fed’s going, and that margin seems to be getting thinner and thinner. Our yield curve’s inverting. We’ve just moved to neutral. What’s your take on what’s going to happen this year?

MEGHAN SHUE: Yeah. A lot has transpired since the beginning of the year, enough to keep most strategists busy for a full year I would say. So as we –

TONY ROTH: Are you lobbying for some additional compensation for all the work?

MEGHAN SHUE: I’m exhausted. I’m exhausted. But I think as we look forward, inflation for me really is the key and we have seen continued pressure across various elements of the inflation landscape. Wages remain firm, supply chains have not resolved themselves as quickly as we had hoped, and we’re looking at a historically tight labor market. And then, you’re throwing on top of that the commodity pressures, both on the energy as well as metals, minerals, and agriculture, all emanating from the conflict in Russia and Ukraine.

So, I think what happens with inflation is really going to dictate what happens with the economy and with markets and the Federal Reserve’s response, which we know is right now has taken a dramatic
u-turn from where we were just a few months ago. If we had been talking in November or December, we’d be talking about market expectations for the Fed to raise rates two, maybe three times in 2022 and now we fast-forward to today and the market is pricing in 8.5 more 25 basis point hikes on top of the one we just got. So, a big change.

I do think that we’re coming to this year, both in the U.S. and globally, on solid economic footing so that we have a cushion to withstand these risks. But the margin for error is getting smaller and smaller. When we think about especially the Fed and the possibility of a so-called soft landing, being able to hike rates fairly aggressively and still avoid a recession, I think about it more in terms of we could have a safe landing but that doesn’t mean it won’t be bumpy for equity investors.

TONY ROTH: Yeah. Let’s go back to wages. We have a scenario with wages where we have employees making more money and we’re seeing very strong resilience on the part of consumers and we’re seeing more job openings than we’ve seen I think in 50 years in the economy.

MEGHAN SHUE: That’s right.

TONY ROTH: So, it’s on the one hand a problem for the economy to have all of the inflation that’s partly driven by wages. But on the other hand, provides a lot of resilience for workers that are out there working and putting money in their pockets. Do you think that there is going to be a moderation in the wage spiral, if you will, that we’re seeing, or do you think that the tightness of the labor market is just going to continue and it’s going to just cause companies to just continue to need to pay more?

MEGHAN SHUE: We are seeing some call them early or maybe tentative signs of wage pressure softening. The National Federation of Independent Businesses, a small business survey, is showing record percent of companies raising prices. But if you look at expectations for hiring and expectations for wage increases, those have started to rollover a little bit.

Job openings are still very, very elevated. We have a lot of wood to chop there but starting to come off a little bit as well. And when you look at these indicators of hiring intentions, they do tend to lead wage growth with a few-month lead time. So, we would expect to see wage prices starting to soften and I think that would put, kind of help us to find a nice happy medium where consumers are still earning money, they’re getting wage increases but it’s starting to slow so that it’s not going to overtake the balance sheets of companies, because it is a big chunk of corporate spending is on wages. And so, I think we’re looking …

TONY ROTH: The majority in fact.

MEGHAN SHUE: That’s right, about 60% I think by some measures. So, it’s an important consideration. And if wages were to continue to move higher, we would be looking at I would say some serious pressure on margins, which by some measures are at all-time highs right now.

TONY ROTH: That’s a good place to start because that gives us, it gives companies, a nice cushion, if you will, to be able to probably have their margin shrink and still do really well. And it’s typical to see Producer Price Index, which includes wages, to vary much more volatiley than Consumer Price Index and that’s what we’re seeing. So, as companies ultimately can’t pass on all the additional costs to consumers, it comes out of their profits. But we’re starting from such a broad profit margin starting point that there’s going to be, I think, still a nice year from a corporate profit standpoint is what we’re forecasting right now.

MEGHAN SHUE: Yeah. I think that’s right. I think there is room to still see growth there. And the health of the job market also is key, and those jobs are there. You know, there is a possibility that we’re going to be pulling more workers off the couch so to speak into the labor market, which would also help to alleviate some of that wage crunch.

TONY ROTH: And I think that one of the other factors that we often don’t spend a lot of time talking about is that we’ve had a really abnormal economy for the last couple years where there’s been this heightened consumption of goods, very, very heightened consumption of goods at the expense of services and historically, we’ve been two-thirds services and one-third goods. And with COVID, hopefully the major elements of that chapter being behind us, I do think we’re going to get another wave in the fall, but I don’t know that it will bring much disruption beyond masking.

But given that, we should see this shift back to services continue to accelerate and that in and of itself will help with inflation, because it’ll really from a demand standpoint help to alleviate a lot of that excess demand that we’ve had on goods, which is where we’re seeing most of the inflation. Most of the inflation indeed is on the goods side of the economy, not on the services side.

So, when you put all that together, do you think we have a chance to get to a soft landing? In other words, does the Fed frontload this and try to slow things down enough and then thread that needle later in the year? What’s our base case? How does it all play out?

MEGHAN SHUE: Yeah. I think the Fed has indicated a desire to get their policy rate closer to neutral, the so-called rate that doesn’t stimulate nor contract the economy. It’s an estimated figure, but they want to get that closer to what they deem to be the neutral rate, which might be 2.5% for the Fed funds rate. They’re not going to be able to do that in the next couple of months, but we could see some 50 basis point rate hikes.

There is a possibility, you know, I think as we think about the shift from goods to services, we’ve got to be mindful of the health of the consumer, which broadly speaking the consumer is very healthy. The job market is healthy in supporting the consumer as well. But we’ve seen an erosion of savings in the lower-income tiers and those are the population cohorts that are most inclined to spend and to spend more of their income.

It’s a little bit unfortunate that we’re finally getting a reopening and a hopefully sustained reopening and move away from COVID at a time when those lower income consumers are sitting at basically pre-pandemic levels of savings or lower. So, we don’t have quite that same cushion that we had if we were able to see the sustained reopening a year ago. But I do still think that there is tailwind there.

Something to be watching is the housing market, which is another kind of if you think about discretionary spending versus nondiscretionary spending, I would bucket housing into the nondiscretionary, along with energy, you know, filling your gas tank, heating your home, and buying food for your family. And mortgage rates are the highest that they have been since I think 2014. So, we’ve seen a really rapid deterioration in the affordability of housing. And that’s, again, not enough to derail the economy, but something to be mindful of.

TONY ROTH: Right. I mean it impacts the housing sector of the economy directly. But most people that own houses today are not going to be affected because they have their mortgages in place. They’re not variable rate. Especially after the great financial crisis, most people have moved to fixed rate structures, right?

MEGHAN SHUE: That’s right.

TONY ROTH: So, but when you think about ultimately what it comes down to is sort of what is the sensitivity and the durability of the consumer in the face of the kind of inflation that we’re seeing. So, in other words right now we’re seeing a lot of resilience in the consumer. In fact, we got some numbers this morning that I don’t know if you saw them. I haven’t had a chance to see them. We had some, I believe it was retail sales this morning. How did they come in?

MEGHAN SHUE: Yeah. Fairly flat. So, I think a little bit of a disappointment, perhaps some of that shifting away, you know, when you adjust for energy, you know, shifting away from other parts of spending. But not a red flag or anything to be overly alarmed about. And, in fact, I would argue that a slowdown in consumer spending is what we need to help bring down inflation, because I think there’s a bit of a misconception that the Fed can do a whole lot this year to adjust inflation.

TONY ROTH: Well, you’re talking about maybe getting to neutral later in the year. That’s not going to help to bring it down. It’s just going to bring it back to neutral by the end of the year.

MEGHAN SHUE: Exactly. And we know that monetary policy takes effect with a lag. So, the current inflationary pressures related to tightness of the labor market, supply chains, energy, there’s little that the Fed can do immediately to reconcile that. But I do think that as we look out over the balance of the year, if we start to see some slowing in the consumer, that would help to bring down inflationary pressures on the demand side of the equation.

TONY ROTH: Right. And there’s a lot of talk around stagflation. And I think what’s most interesting about that from our perspective is that we, indeed, have a very optimistic view of the growth side of the equation. It’s really the inflation side of the equation that we’re worried about. And to the extent that the Fed needs to not go to neutral but beyond neutral, wherever that theoretical point is on this curious point out there in the ether, we’re really talking about the risk of a recession most likely in 2023 as the Fed ramps up that rate and –

MEGHAN SHUE: Yeah. At the earliest, right.

TONY ROTH: But I think the wildcard here is the situation in Russia. That’s all predicated on seeing oil around $110–$115 for the rest of the year. If we get oil into the $130–$140 category, because purchasers of Russian crude don’t want to pay in rubles we’re going to end up in, potentially in a situation with much higher energy prices and that is where there is possibility given the inelasticity of consumption of things like gasoline and home heating that you’ve got a real chance of recession in Europe this year, which could then flow into other parts of the world.

MEGHAN SHUE: Yeah. I think that’s right. So, Europe’s reliance on Russian oil and natural gas is obviously much greater than ours here. They do have a solid economy as well and a more favorable monetary and fiscal backdrop over in Europe. So, that is working in the region’s favor.

But we have seen consumer sentiment in the eurozone, in Germany specifically, just tank of late. And so, that is a bit of a cautionary signal of what could come from a, especially a consumer spending point of view.

TONY ROTH: Well, you know, we talked about the yield curve inverting and that being a harbinger of recession. But when we look at the data, actually consumer sentiment and confidence is probably even a more powerful indicator and when you look at what’s happening in the U.S. at that dimension, I don’t know if it’s as bad as Europe or not given that they’re so proximate to a war. But in the U.S., it’s gotten—it’s collapsed as well.

MEGHAN SHUE: That’s, yeah. That’s right.

TONY ROTH: And so, that’s another source of concern as it relates to a possible recession over here, right? And they—even though the interest rates don’t necessarily directly affect the economy, they affect the perception of inflation and the perception of the strength of the economy and that affects the consumer indirectly.

MEGHAN SHUE: Yeah. And the inflationary picture it’s the main driver that we’re seeing in consumer as well as small business surveys as just being a headwind. So, the good news to that is that if our forecast for inflation coming down is right and we do see the CPI end the year around 4.5%, some of that inflationary pressure coming off would be a tailwind, some pressure coming off of the back of the consumer, and that could have us, you know, recovering from these levels.

TONY ROTH: So, one of the factors that we’ve talked about recently with regard to inflation, let’s assume that there’s a negotiated peace in the war in the next couple months. There is a feeling that on the one hand Putin is not ready to put down the saber. But on the other hand, he’s probably trying to look for a dignified or a face-saving exit ramp for him. I don’t think that our sense is that he’s looking to take over more broadly Eastern Europe right now, if ever.

So, assuming that there’s an offramp at some point here and that we don’t get that outcome on crude, the $130 to $150 or higher for the rest of the year, we get the lower outcome on crude, one of the other factors we’ve talked about that is going to potentially have an impact on the production and the supply chain is the zero-COVID policy in China. And it’s not just in Shanghai, which is what we’re seeing right now, but it’s really systemically across the country when we check our contacts. Various places in China are shutting down for a day, a week, etcetera. How does that feed into the inflation picture in your mind? How concerned are you about that?

MEGHAN SHUE: Well, you know, that has been a big contributor to supply chain disruptions over the past couple of years, the wholesale lockdown of a city, shutting down ports for extended periods of time. You know, we saw at one point a doubling in the amount of time it takes for goods to get from China to the U.S.

I think going forward the zero tolerance COVID policy does not appear to be going away. I think at the margin policymakers are going to try to be a little bit more nimble with that policy as it relates to kind of blunting the impact, the negative impact on growth. And we’re seeing that in the duration of lockdowns for residential parts of the city versus some of the manufacturing hubs. The manufacturing hubs are seeing shorter lockdowns to try to get them back up and running.

Foxconn in particular is a major supplier for Apple. They shut down the area of the city where that plant is located for two days versus about ten days in other parts of the city.

So, I think they’re doing some things at the margin to help with that. But it’s, I would say it’s a big risk, in particular because it doesn’t appear like that there’s any end in sight for this over there in China. The vaccines are a less effective vaccine. Vaccination rate is much lower than it is in the West, and we know how contagious the latest variants are.

So, this is something that I think is a key risk to inflation and it’s coming at a time when the overall economy is suffering. The property market is in contraction and the consumer, for obvious reasons, is not feeling all that confident and willing to spend. So, something to watch over there and it’ll probably happen in these fast-moving pockets and then, you know, we’ll probably move beyond this wave and have a period of calm. But the trajectory, you know, living with COVID and moving past COVID for the rest of the world is not imminent in China.

TONY ROTH: Yeah. And just to add to that, one of the things that, just to give people a broader sort of sense of what the Chinese are doing, what they’re concerned about, because I think it’s easy to question, well, why wouldn’t they just allow it to sort of rip through the population the way it is in Germany today, for example? And the difference is that, you put your finger on it, Meghan, the Chinese don’t have a recently broadly vaccinated population with a high-quality vaccine and therefore significant durability.

They have—a very comparatively low percentage of their population that’s vaccinated, even fewer boosted, and a poor vaccine where they have a outsized from a demographics standpoint component of elderly people. And so, they’re worried about the death count is what they’re worried about at the end of the day and how that’s going to play with society if, in fact, they have a really bad outcome in that regard. And it could be millions and millions of people. So, I think that’s what the leadership is really concerned about in China, and I just wanted to provide that perspective on what they’re really—what their end game is here that they’re trying to deal with.

So, interestingly, the one area that we do have an overweight in our markets is in the emerging markets and one third of it is China. So, a big part of that is too from—to evaluation perspective that there’s a lot of stuff that happened in 2021 that no one expected in terms of regulatory crackdowns in China. We were certainly not ahead of that narrative. And we saw Chinese equities, particularly those new economy internet stocks, etcetera, just get hammered, losing 70–80% of their values. So, as it relates to China, we feel really reticent to want to leave that market right now.

When you think about the broader emerging markets, of course Russia is a tiny piece of it, but there are a lot of other areas. So, maybe just tell us a little bit why we think we still have—of all the areas in the world, why do we feel most attached to keeping our overweight to emerging markets?

MEGHAN SHUE: Yeah. Well, emerging markets are a more cyclical trade, typically. And what I mean by that is that when you see global economic growth recovering, you would expect emerging markets to do better. And so, that was certainly part of the narrative coming into this year. I don’t think that’s been totally derailed.

An important consideration is that the surge in commodity prices is a big headwind to an economy, you know, a developed economy. It’s a much more of a tailwind for certain emerging market economies. If you think about Latin America, Brazil, Mexico, Colombia, and—just to name a few—they are net producers of commodities, energy as well as some metals and agricultural products. So, this higher level of prices is really benefiting their growth prospects.

And then, you also think about the policy dynamic where we are looking at this year a very aggressive tightening from the Federal Reserve. In many ways, the emerging market economies have been ahead of us. Those central banks have been tightening policy to try to get their inflationary pressures under control. So, I think there is a little bit less of a potential risk from a stronger dollar and from a Fed-tightening perspective, because we are looking at emerging market currencies that are in a little bit more of a stable position and central banks over there that have gotten ahead of the curve when it comes to tightening policy.

TONY ROTH: Yeah. And I want to reiterate that point on currency, because in the European/U.S. currency cross, we’ve seen weakness in the euro versus the dollar, which is to be expected, because we’re on a very clear rate trajectory and the Europeans are still trying to figure out this balance between stagnation on the one hand and inflation on the other. And just today, I think we saw, was it German or Italian inflation above 10%. Oh, I think German was at a 7 handle yesterday and Italy came out today with 10% inflation. So, their inflation is probably even exceeding ours now in certain areas of Europe. But by the same token they are so exposed to a recession risk due to the war much more so than we are that the ECB seems to be much more reserved in its rate forecast. Maybe they’ll get a rate or two increase this year. So that puts tremendous pressure, downward pressure, on the euro relative to the dollar. And we’re not seeing that kind of relationship in most of these emerging market dollar currency crosses. Where those emerging market currencies are holding up very well, for the reasons that you just laid out. So, I think that’s really interesting and that has a lot to do with why we’re still overweight that plus the valuation point, why we’re overweight emerging, but by a small amount.

So, what about within the domestic market? We’ve been, to be fair, right we’ve been sort of a victim to try to get the value verses growth call right.

We’ve been a little bit more oriented towards value the last few months and even with everything going on and rates moving so high, you’d expect a lot of these big-cap growth names that essentially have earnings much further out in the future and discounted at a higher rate with the rate environment raising, you’d think that value would really outperform growth, but it hasn’t.

So, I think right now we’re, in our overall portfolio we’re pretty balanced. But what do you expect from a value versus growth standpoint and what are we—how are we handling that in our portfolios?

MEGHAN SHUE: Yeah. So, when we say value we’re talking in factor space, so essentially looking through at the true drivers of returns for companies and then aggregating that up to different strategies that we utilize in our overall portfolio. It’s interesting, because the last few years have been a relatively simple narrative. COVID lockdowns meant the market was favoring growth stocks. We weren’t getting growth from the economy, so look to the tech space.

TONY ROTH: Disinflationary…


TONY ROTH: … right? Growth companies do great in disinflationary environments.

MEGHAN SHUE: Low rates, not a whole lot of growth to come by in the economy, you know, COVID shutdowns, flying into tech names and parts of the growth trade. Get to the COVID reopening, the economic reopening and it was all into value, smaller cap, cheaper names that are more tied to economic growth, in some cases more exposed to cyclical sectors like energy and financials.

So, it was really an on or an off switch that investors had to flip. So, simple narrative, very difficult to time, by the way. And now today, we’re looking at a much more complex narrative where we have COVID reopening but we are also looking at a deceleration in growth versus last year and a possible even disappointment if we see inflationary pressures and consumer sentiment lead to a downward revision on growth. Rates are higher but the yield curve is flatter. We generally look at value are working when the yield curve is steepening and then you have also the rate impact on growthier parts of the market which are highly valued and they’re susceptible to multiple de-rating, if you will, because of the move higher in rates. But we’re also talking about possible recession. So, its not at all clear who is the winner or not, that’s why we’ve been really committed to diversifying across at least those two factors as well as some others and remaining relatively more tilted toward value but keeping that foothold in growth. Where, especially over the last couple weeks, we’ve seen some real interesting opportunities emerging in some of those names that were probably beaten up for no good reason. I mean there still is value to be had in parts of the tech sector, for example.

TONY ROTH: Not to mix our metaphors, but –


TONY ROTH: … opportunity.

MEGHAN SHUE: So, I think that there is, going forward, we do think that value can continue to work. And if you look at, you know, the historic return differential, we’re still looking at value as having underperformed for a long period of time versus growth. There’s room to make up there. But, again, I would say just trying to time those rotations is hard enough when the narrative is clear and just driven by a single variable. And today, it’s a much harder narrative to get right at the right time. So, diversification is really important.

TONY ROTH: You’ll appreciate this. I—your kids are littler than mine. But my little one is 14 years old, and I just got a Tesla and brought it home and the first day we got it, she figured out that there were games you could play. And one of the games, you can actually—you have to actually get in the driver’s seat and drive the wheel, you know, turn the wheel and you’re driving on the screen. But while you’re driving, there are asteroids coming down and hitting you and monsters jumping out at you and all kinds of fun things like that. And I said to her that’s what I do for a living, because she always wants to know what do you do, Dad? I don’t really get it.

And so, I said I do that basically. But in real life, you know, we’re trying to negotiate these things. And I can’t remember a time that has been as tricky outside of the history of the paradigm of how we invest.

And so, indeed, we’ve taken down the tracking on our portfolio, which is to say that we’re really trying to stick fairly close to our benchmarks and not make big bets, because you feel at the moment almost like anything can happen and we have an excess of cash relative to anywhere we’ve been in many years. I think we’ve got about 3% or 4% cash sitting in our portfolios.

MEGHAN SHUE: Yeah. I think cash can be your friend today where, you know, you need that optionality, you need to be able to pivot quickly, and being a little bit more defensive. And the defensive part of the portfolio that is—we typically look to—is high quality fixed income and that is a part of the market that has done better than equities but has seen one of its worst drawdowns in history.

So, to be piling into bonds today when we think rates are continuing to move higher is a really tough sell. So, that’s why cash, I think, is just smart, a smart move to have a little bit of elevated cash in the portfolio.

TONY ROTH: Absolutely. So, I think we’re going to have to end because we’re out of time. But we could go on and on talking about the obstacles that are being hurled at us.

So, let me summarize what I think are some three key takeaways. I think number one is we’re in a very complex macroenvironment, but the main risk is inflation, both domestically and, frankly, abroad. And we need to keep our eye very firmly on the inflation story and understand how that’s likely to develop if we want to know when the economy may or—may go into recession. And that’s exactly what we’re doing.

And we’re not confident that inflation’s going to come down as quickly as our base case forecast right now. There are a lot of upside risks, whether it be the China situation, whether it be the war in the Ukraine persisting longer than we think, or whether it be a wage spiral here at home, which again we don’t think is going to happen. We think wages are going to moderate, but these are three big risks from an inflation standpoint that we’ve got to keep our eyes on.

Number two is that as a result of that and some these unknowns, certainly a bad outcome meaning a recession, a deeper recession, an earlier recession is more likely than, much more likely than when we entered the year especially in Europe. And so, we are moving our portfolios and repositioning to take risk off the table, and we’ve done that.

And then lastly is what do you all do as investors? What do you tell yourselves? How do you negotiate through this? And I think that it’s a higher volatility period. We think it’s going to continue. But I think keeping calm is really the key and following the advice that we’re delivering on around diversification, as you’ve described, Meghan, building yield into portfolios.

We haven’t talked much about our private market program. But finding very powerful non-correlated investment opportunities outside of the public markets that can add really nice returns to portfolios that are predicated on interesting economic themes like direct to consumer, industrial warehouses and e-commerce environments. There’s so much disruption going on in health care, which is something we think we’ll be bringing to the client base later this year, a really interesting health care opportunity. So, those are the things that we want to bring to you all to think about so that as a long-term investor, you know, we’ll get through this, as we always do, and there’ll be a lot of upside once some of these risks subside.

So, with that, I want to thank you, Meghan, for your insights today and it’s great always to have you.

MEGHAN SHUE: Thank you for having me. It’s been a pleasure.

TONY ROTH: I want to encourage everyone to visit wilmingtontrust.com for a roundup of our latest investment ideas. You can subscribe to Capital Considerations on Apple Podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or your favorite podcast channel to ensure you get updates on all future episodes. Thank you again for listening.


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